Sacrifice or Suicide?

For many years now I have had a problem with what Christians believe happens in the afterlife to those who suicide. I was advised by the kindest, most emphatic (sarc) Catholic priest that they burn in hell because they have self murdered & this is against God’s law. (Again – people really need to read their bible) I don’t get it to be honest. Didnt Jesus Christ commit suicide by Roman to fulfil prophecy? Well this is my take on it anyway.

Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified. Matthew 26:2

Many Christians believe that Jesus came to redeem man to God by His death on the cross and to forgive man’s sins. In some instances we have the death of Jesus, yet at other times you see the same Christians making the claim that Jesus “lives.” Did he actually die or does he live? It cannot work both ways. Even if the death means a temporary death, it gives little value for an eternal sacrifice. But regardless of which way one believes, the morality of such an act deserves questioning.

If Jesus equals a god, then he could not have sacrificed his life, simply because an infinite god cannot die. If Jesus died as just a man, then he committed what we would today call suicide. If anyone believes his prediction in Matt 26:2 then Jesus must have known of his upcoming crucifixion. Jesus fulfilling his own prophecy says nothing about miraculous predictions for such self-fulfilling prophecies tend to carry themselves out. But if he lived as an all powerful being, he would have the power to avert his death. But he chose not to. Instead he consciously allowed his own death. Suicide. This act of self destruction, especially in light of a horrible disfigured and bleeding torso nailed to a cross hardly gives an exemplary act of the expression of life. On the contrary, such a scene equals that of horror movies designed to scare people out of their wits. Who knows how many children have experienced psychological problems after witnessing an image of a tortured man nailed to a cross at Sunday school. (By the way, any graven image of Christ violates the second commandment Exodus 20:4-5

As to the sacrifice, just what did Jesus sacrifice? According to the Bible, he certainly did not sacrifice his life. Jesus went to Heaven, (the right hand side of God) supposedly a place of peace, calm and everlasting joy. But as a man on earth, Jesus received death threats, attempts at stoning, and condemnation by his enemies. Exiting the problems on earth for the joys of heaven hardly gives an example of noble sacrifice. On the contrary, it appears that Jesus escaped his problems, leaving his disciples on their own for a life in perfect heaven. Should we teach our children to emulate such a selfish act?

Did Jesus redeem man from his sacrifice? History shows that violence of man against man has increased since the alleged “sacrifice.” Wars, terrorist acts, murders, and suicides have occurred because of faithful acts in the name of Jesus. It appears that the sacrifice resembles the curse of a demon rather than that of a savior. Furthermore, believing that his death forgives sins only provides reason for committing them in the first place. Why should anyone feel so disagreeable about committing sins when they feel that Jesus has already forgiven them? No wonder jails contain so many Christian zealots. Regardless of how “Caesar’s” laws treat them, they think of themselves as specially forgiven.

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About pagan66

I am Pagan, a Witch, a Healer, Mystic & Dreamer. I live in Service to the One. I will Protect & Respect Her bounties to my last breath. I am a Seeker of Truth, a Reformer, A Historian - an Advocate for Religious Freedom, Tolerance & Human Rights. I am a Protector of Animals & Children & those less fortunate than myself. I am a Reader & a Writer - an Artist. I am a Drummer, Gardener & Cook. I listen to the Wisdom of the Ancients. If you take a copy of the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman. "When one defines oneself as Pagan, it means she or he follows an earth or nature religion, one that sees the divine manifest in all creation. The cycles of nature are our holy days, the earth is our temple, its plants and creatures our partners and teachers. We worship a deity that is both male and female, a mother Goddess and father God, who together created all that is, was, or will be. We respect life, cherish the free will of sentient beings, and accept the sacredness of all creation." Edain McCoy View all posts by pagan66

11 responses to “Sacrifice or Suicide?

  • Irene Santos

    Pagan…….it appears that you have an understanding ( rather than a system of belief ) and it is very refreshing to read. I have always felt the same way about this subject. I would have to say that my greatest “beef” with organized religion and the bible is the blatant fact that it actually encourages, misogyny, genocide, infanticide and racism!
    I am so happy to hear your perspective on Alvin Conway’s site because it brings a great deal of light and love into that particular arena.

    Have you ever heard of people called ‘Contactees’? I hope so. : )

    Thanks for your perspective. It can change the world.

  • pagan66

    Irene – Thank you. You’re so right when you write the word understanding because that’s exactly what I feel I am searching for & it’s calming to know there are others that instinctively know the same things. I do believe 100% that there is a Creator & all of Nature & Life is eternally sacred, this I know deep down as unassailable Truth but if only, if only Man could step back, remove the illusions & delusion of organized religion – even just for ONE day, we could change the world. Truly there must be an alternate Earth out there somewhere, one which hasnt been tied down into a blind bondage of fear, hate & misery for milleniums because of the predictions, superstitions & beliefs of a few Bronze Age tribesmen. I pray that one day, we as the custodians of this Earth & the owners of our OWN souls become brave enough to reach conciousness to let the eternal Light & Love in.

    I too have always been happy to read your posts on Alvin’s site & have always thought you were switched on & shone. Thanks for your posts & it’s lovely to meet you.

    Love Peace Light

  • Irene Santos

    No, no! It is I who is happy to read YOUR posts! : ) I am using my middle name Irene instead of the one I used to post under ( Jamie ) on Alvin’s site. My son was killed in Iraq last June so I deleted my facebook account and other accounts because I needed to be alone. Then, one day, I knew that I needed to be back out there in cyberspace again so in order to do this ( Post on sites that is ) I had to create an account on facebook; hence using the middle moniker. My family absolutely hates what I talk about and everyone knows that on facebook if you signed up under a particular name and email then it sticks with you….and them.

    Anyway, feel free to call me Jamie or Jamie Irene ( which is what my school friends called me ) or anything you’d like to call me. : )

    As for being switched on? Well, I cannot take credit for that. A whole lotta people helped me to raise my consciousness…..here and on the other side.

    I love your blog. I love what you write. I love that you get it. I know that there are creators and that they share the spotlight equally…..male and female energy working in harmony. I will never understand how anyone can call the creator(s) “Him”??? How arrogant!….and mean spirited.

    As for the post on Jesus committing suicide? I agree with your understanding. Jesus was just a soul with a really big and serious mission. He took on alot of responsibility ( would you not go clean up a big mess if you had made one??? ) and knew what he was facing with the devolved souls of Earth. I am a student of Astrology and can verify that we do choose the time of our incarnation and the situations that will help us to grow. So would that not, in and of itself, imply suicide?! The choosing of life circumstances? My son knew that he was leaving last year…and his daughter’s Birth Map bore this reality out. My mother was an Astrologer and she, too, saw this in his chart but neglected to tell me. She did tell my sister, though, who told me after the fact.
    Almost every parent I have read about ( in regards to their child’s passing ) has told a story of unusual conversations or words of comfort from the child right before the loss. My son sent me a Mother’s Day card and inside this card, Pagan, was a little note. This little note was one of loving compassion to help ease my guilt and ongoing grief in having to send my four sons to live with their father when they were younger. I had never gotten over the anguish of seperation that poverty caused….and misogyny. He instinctively knew this and these were his last words to me. 2 weeks later an IED penetrated his vehicle and took this beautiful light from Earth. ( He really was/is a beautiful soul ).
    My last words to him were, ” I want you to know what an honor it was/is to be your mother in this lifetime.” I did not know why I said what I said but it is now clear that I knew this was the time of his leaving. When we set aside the ego our true essence bubbles forth and rememberances from the time before incarnating surfaces, and, this is when magical moments happen. This is when we truly see each other.

    I have always found it utterly ridiculous the fawning and infatuation over one person. We are all worthy of adoration! So, he came, he saw, he chided and reprimanded. He guided, he mentored, he probably even pooped like all the rest of us. All that I can think is this, somewhere in time, along this steady stream of growing and evolving, he must have done something reeeeaaally bad. So bad that, after many eons of incarnating and evolving, he thought he was ready to go and clean up what he had started. I could be wrong but not much else makes any sense to me. As above, so below the saying goes. I am under the impression that we are all messiahs in the making. No seperatism or favoritism from the creators on high. : )
    I have equally found it ridiculous how religious people will revile ( or kill ) others who do no hold the same system of values. I find it ridiculous that religious people value a system of belief over the sanctity of life. Soooo, Pagan, you are correct. Jesus’ appearance has caused more suffering than illumination.

    It is nice to meet someone of your frequency. I feel a communion…which is rare for me. Lol!

    I hope you do not mind me stopping in and posting. Next time I will try to be more succinct!

    Onwards and Upwards!

    • pagan66

      Jamie you write so very beautifully & with such power. I’m so very grateful that you have stopped in & shared your heart & the story of your son, it is shining one to be sure. I too know of the pain of losing a beautiful child & one that you have such a strong eternal bond with.

      Suicide is a very strong subject to me, I cannot & will not see it as a sin & that those that have used this method to cross are now burning in a conflagration of misery & pain with absolutely no hope of salvation. My beautiful adored daughter took her own life when she was just 15 after three years of battling anorexia & the inevitable depression that occurs with it. I watched my beloved child change from a vibrant healthy girl into an empty shell, I watched her light die & I couldnt help her, I couldnt save her & because I couldnt, her death almost destroyed me. During her lifetime out of respect to both sets of grandparents, I had her baptized into the Catholic faith, had her educated through the Catholic school system & I accompanied her to Church even though it went against everything I held sacred. After Tara died & I was organizing funeral arrangements the priest who had held her as a baby & baptized her, the same one who she had known her entire life told me he was not willing to perform any sort of service for her in his Church & she could not be buried in the Catholic section of the cemetary because she had died in sin & that her soul was not welcome in Heaven. I really hadnt expected much more than that, I too – until I was awakened at 14 – had grown up in the Catholic faith & knew all about its unbending, cruel & unnatural systems. When I asked that priest why my daughters method of death was any different to Jesus’ he looked so horrified I thought he was going to have an apoplexy & told me never to speak such blasphemy again & pray to God to forgive me for uttering it. That’s the problem with people of those sorts of religions – unless you agree with them & bow down to the strange beliefs they hold you are an anathema to them & not worthy of any sort of merit or consideration & confronting that priest at such a time was probably not the wisest move but I seriously felt like I was in the Dark Ages in front of an inquisitor so I fought back. It felt like Déjà vu.

      I too have always thought it ridiculous & totally unnatural for humans to persecute, torture & kill each other over the existence or not of God. Who are we to make such windows into each others souls? Faith is such a very personal & private thing – I would no more demand that somebody worship an icecream cone than I would demand & expect anybody to believe in what I do. I can only wish that others would feel the same way & accord each other the same modicum of respect, though I know without a shred of doubt that it’s going to take huge & drastic changes for such things to happen. There has to be a shift in conciousness, something has to give, something so huge that will awaken & illuminate the masses. Most of the historically recorded miseries that our species has put itself through can be directly traced back to the burning question of the Christian God – & that same God, especially the one from the OT, does not deserve the adoration that has been given to him over these last few milleniums.

      To converse with somebody who writes of reincarnation as normally & naturally as yourself is a true delight. I have animals to feed, a fire to light & vegetables to water & it’s late afernoon here in southern Australia My partner has just left again today to go back to work for three weeks, he works three on, one off a month so I’m responsible for all here at home lol. I will reply again later, the nights are long & cold at the moment & it’s nice to chat to somebody as nice as you.

      Peace & love

  • Irene Santos

    Hmmmm…..my post seems a little confusing. I was speaking of Jesus in that 3rd paragraph…not my son. Sorry if I left you furrowing your brow. : /

  • Irene Santos

    Oh…..Pagan! My heart bleeds for you! I just wanted to hold you as I read your post. Oh the pain of losing a child! It is unbearable. Unbearable! Even worse to have someone tell you that this beautiful heart of your hearts is not worthy of love and compassion! Vile, cruel and vulgar is such a soul who says such a thing! I am so glad that I have met you, Pagan. So very glad. I have felt alone in this struggle against the power structures that have created such a heartless world. Meeting you feels like a reunion…..I cannot fully explain how I feel right now.
    Suicide is not a “sin”. Heartlessness, lack of care and compassion ARE! I cannot even begin to understand what you are going through, Pagan, but, I can put myself in your shoes and FEEL what it must feel like to be you….and Tara. As I said in my last post, I am a student of Astrology and in this language of art and science combined stories are revealed of past, present and even future lives. These stories tell of potentials. Potentials for the growth and evolution of our souls. There is NO such thing as “sin” in Astrology. Deep compassion and love is what studying someone’s Life Path elicites. Pagan, if everyone could see what I see when I look into a Birth Map they would be truly in awe of the soul they are studying. EACH person is magnificent…radiant and perfect! It is the environment in which the soul is born into which dulls that radiance. This world is not a fit place in which to raise such glorious sparks of the creator….but it is all that we have at this dark time in Earth’s history. ( As long as man has refused to share his wealth and power with women and children it has been this way.)

    I know that you see this and live the reality of such a cruel world.
    When I was 5 years old I was looking at the visage of Christ on the front of a very ornate bible sitting on my parent’s coffee table. Just at that moment I heard, “Do not believe everything that you read in that book.” This was more like an internal message that I was recieving from the cosmos ( or my guides as they are a very real part of my life ). To be honest, Pagan, I felt challenged and set out to prove my elders/guides wrong. I went to different denominational sermons and found lacking a heart and soul to the teachings AND the people that attended them. It felt void of any kind of beauty and gentleness…which is how I operate. If a chord is not struck within my body then I immediately repel the foreign object that tries to pluck at my strings. Does this make any sense at all to you, Pagan? I know that I can come across as weird to most …and I am actually told this by close friends… but I have found that I cannot accept what is not natural to my spirit. It is as if I have an automatic response of regurgitation to anything void of loving compassion. I am happy with this ability though.

    My son, Nicholas, was not religious nor was he inclined to be so insular a human, yet, to please his paternal grandparents ( whom I have no respect for ) my DIL had a catholic ceremony performed. These “grandparents” threw my children under the proverbial bus in order to protect their son many, many years ago and this I can never forget. Children ( those tiny souls who are dependent upon big people for their survival…not the grown offspring of old people ) are the number 1 priority and must be protected from ALL harm….even if that harm is a biological parent. These granparents did not think along these lines so my children suffered a great deal.
    So, I had to endure a paedophilic “priest” presiding over the sacred ceremony of my son’s temple. Perhaps it is a saving grace that Tara was not interred by these unevolved cretins?
    My DIL never asked what I wanted or where I would like him to rest. I was never mentioned during the ceremony ( I stayed back with my beautiful grandchildren in the waiting room during the service ) nor was my current husband who had been a good stepfather to Nicholas. It was as if I did not exist and our relationship had no meaning. Only her side of the family and the paternal side was mentioned during the service. Her sisters arrived in short dresses with their boobs prominently on display. It was disrespectful….but I can let all of that go because Nicholas visits me, Pagan. I could tell you stories!

    I have seen videos of people who have committed suicide and come back to talk about it. They say that they went to a loving and beautiful place and that there was no condemnation for what they had done. They were shown that there were other options…that is all. Just options. No fire and brimstone. No eternal hellfire and condemnation. No judgement. Just love…..sort of like the way a parent would feel about heir child. Oh, that’s right…we are all “gOd’s” children;children of a gOd who chooses favorites, judges, condemns and reviles when we choose negativity….according to that fat tome called the “bible”. I don’t know any parent like that, Pagan…do you??? That book must be a big fat lie then! : )

    Tara and Nicholas are in a loving place with other family members long transitioned to the other side. I know this….I do not believe this. I do hope that you have had confirmation of this from Tara herself, Pagan….but I feel that you have.

    Your most ardent and fervent hope is the same as mine, Pagan, and I find it no coincidence we have met. There are not many people who have had this expereince with the need to change this experience so that no one else must live it. This is what I want. I want that no child grows up in a world that lays the foundation for future suffering. Organized Religion is THE main cause of all ignorance and suffering on this planet. It imparts a sense of entitlement on behalf of the indoctrinated to commit acts of unkindness and immorality. It is immoral to commit an act of unkindness…at least in the world I come from it is.

    I believe that the more voices speaking the same language then the more people it can reach. The language of Love is the language I speak of.
    Pagan, what is it that people always say when one loses a child? ” I’m so sorry for your loss”….is usually the reaction of most. Well, I have always wondered what to say in reply and the only thing that comes to mind is this, ” Prove it.” Do you know what I am saying here? It has nothing to do with the person giving me anything or saying anything to relieve my personal pain. Just be sorry enough to make sure this does not happen to anyone else. I know how to do this…..and I know you do too.

    Skype me if you ever want to talk….or just have a talk radio program on these issues. : ) jamiesan is the name on my skype account. Magellan7662@yahoo.com is my email.

    Much love I send to you, Pagan!

  • Irene Santos

    I just read your tiny bio and wanted to share that I played the piano and flute when I was in school( although I wanted to be a drummer very bad! ) and am also an avid gardener! I grow a myriad of herbs, flowers and veggies so if you’d like any seed just let me know. : )

    • pagan66

      Hi Jamie…Sorry I havent gotten back to you sooner but Spring is in the air here & tomato planting waits for no woman 🙂

      There are certain things I know, the same as I know I have eyes & ears & a mind to think with. I know the Bible is nothing but a mish mash of superstitious drivel – abridged, edited, added to, subtracted from – How anyone can use such an incomplete work to justify Faith & Truth is quite beyond me. It is a complete lie in it’s current form. Most of it contradicts itself, & what I’m trying to understand is how the Church actually have kept up this pretence for 17 centuries. By force, by threats of eternal damnation, by torture & burnings – now tell me, is that a religion of LOVE? Hardly.They say the Christian God is one of Love but I don’t see it, never have, the God of the OT used to scare the crap out of me as a kid & I used to think He was evil. I still do. if I was living as little as a few centuries ago, I’d have been burned by now, all for questioning doctrine & deciding in what I place my OWN Faith into. Now that’s whacked out. Many, many Christians have absolutely no idea about the history of their religion – they believe in a whitewashed version of a gentle preacher, a sacrificial lamb who was brutally murdered by the Romans. What they don’t realize is how contrived & organized that religion & it’s main charcter the gentle preacher actually was – If he existed at all There are absolutely NO contemporary records of Jesus having lived & performed all the miracles & ministry that the Bible & early Christian fathers claimed he did. The silence on this is so deafening that it’s a miracle that Manking hasnt woken up & screamed ENOUGH of this bullshit!

      History is littered with misconceptions, lies, half truths & mystery. I fear that Mankind has suffered under the most cruel, most elaborate hoax ever. I pray everyday that we shall be released from this awful blindness & the suffocating, cruel stranglehold that archaic & evil institution called the Church has on so many peoples lives, minds , hearts & souls. Religion hasnt worked for milleniums, why can’t we stop this madness & give spirituality & tolerance a chance? I’m still waiting for Jesus to return but I fear he’s on an extended vacation & all those millions of people praying for a Rapture, praying for the end of the world so their Messiah returns to fix everything scares me, things like that enter the conciousness of the masses & that’s called a manifest destiny. When millions upon millions of people pray for something it can happen & it all takes is one nutjob pressing a button or opening a vial. I truly wish there was another planet available so I could move to it to get away from lunatics who believe that the only way to eternal salvation is through immense suffering but since there’s not, I exist in my own world, with my own soul & with my own thoughts that are becoming harder to keep quiet as I watch what’s happening in this world.

      Much love Jamie

      Peace

      • GODSOLDIER

        U ARE EVIL AND SHOULD BE ROASTED ALIVE FOR THE BLASPHEMY U SAY. GOD IS ALL POWERFUL AND WILL STRIKE DOWN AN EVIL BITCH LIKE U. MY LORD JESUS WILL SEND YOUR SOUL STRAIT TO HELL WHERE U BELONG AND U BURN BITCH, BURN FOREVER IN HELL WITH ALL THE DEMONS LIKE U. I AM A SERIOUS CHRISTIAN WHO BELIEVES THAT THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB WILL WASH ME CLEAN AND I WILL LIVE ETERNALLY WITH MY SAVIOR AND GOD JESUS. U BETTER GET ON YOUR KNEES AND PRAY FOR FORGIVENESS FOR THE THINGS U SAY ABOUT THE BIBLE AND GOD BECAUSE I READ U ON OTHER PLACES TOO NOT JUST HERE. I KNOW U ARE TRYING TO GET SATAN TO COME INTO THE WORLD BUT JESUS WILL PROTECT ME AND ALL OTHER CHRISTIANS FROM THE EVIL THAT IS U. BLESS ME AND KEEP MY SOUL CLEAN FROM BITCHES LIKE U AND BURN IN HELL U BLASPHEMING BITCH

      • pagan66

        Wow. Just wow. Which rock did you crawl out from under? I debated posting your nasty tirade but figured if I didnt you would continue spamming my inbox like you have for the last 4 days. There, you’ve had your say, now please, take your toxic venomous thoughts elsewhere – preferably back to the toilet where they came from.

  • Irene Santos

    Pagan……we have proved our theory to be true. The God of the OT is evil. If anyone could viciously attack another, without personal provocation, just from reading a book then this is the very definition of insanity…..and evil.

    In all honesty, Pagan, I feel very sorry for souls such as this pathetic one above who is obviously mentally and spiritually ill. This is what I have always known the bible to instill….a sense of entitlement. They feel entitled to verbally and physically abuse others if they do not share their system of being in this world. Dreadful. My own sister called me a sinner and such but this does not phase me as I can see straight through to the inner workings of such a soul. They are easily bought with promises of their personal salvation and this, in and of itself, is a telling sign of a very immature and unevolved soul. Loving only the self.

    Religion was establised as a form of ‘crowd control’. Have you read anything by Zecheria Sitchin? His books alone explain everything. They explain where we humans acquired our love of gold from, the concept of slavery and need to cower before an almighty, all seeing, wrathful man.

    Max Igan ( a fellow Aussie ) has a very good youtube channel and here is a page I found that sums up the Sumerian Clay tablets and the story they tell from Igan himself. (http://www.dottal.org/tale_of_the_sumerians.htm )
    Pagan, you could not be more right when you say that a cruel hoax has been played on humanity. Sitchin’s work has been relegated to nothing more than fiction ( and it can be found, not in the history section at Barnes and Noble, but, in the science fiction shelves ) and ridiculed by “mainstream” “scientists” and “Scholars”. I also highly recommend Lloyd pye’s work, Jordan Maxwell and a plethora of other scholars and investigators that have dared to challenge the current power structure’s bought and paid for “scholars” and “scientists”……and religious leaders.

    It’s all about power. The power to direct the soul/energy.

    I’ve spent most of my life investigating, questioning and experiencing life. What I have found is that everything we have been told is a lie,but, I have to say that I have had information given to me though means of telepathy.
    I read what Alvin said about “Aliens” and I can verify that this is not true. He says that he has proof they are evil…but I have had personal experience and can verify the opposite. Instilling fear and dread into the minds of any soul is not helpful. Being involved in this I have had to slowly come to terms with this reality. At first I was terrified because it was not “normal” to me…like washing dishes, folding clothes and arguing with my spouse were all “normal” things to me. I thought that I was losing my marbles so I went to a psychiatrist and given a clean bill of health. It was affirmed that I lived in the here and now and had no time for imagining an alternate life.
    As I began to wake up from the fog of lies of this putrid world I realized that what I was experiencing with my star family was way more loving and healthy than what I had experienced with my Earth family. It was bad;real bad. Incest, beatings and attempt by my mother to stomp me into oblivion at the ripe old age of 9. I had to beg for my life. As I grew the world was just as scary a place as my parent’s home had been. Just more of the same because I had come from dis ease so attracted it more times than I’d like to admit.

    Along the way I was visited by guides who told me when to leave the father of my children ( literally ), showed me future events of danger for family members and what would happen to billions of souls during a period of catastrophism on Earth. They are not as scary as many would like us to believe. Funny, we are told to worship an unloving, maniacal sociopath with misogynistic tendencies yet made to be afraid of beings most have never personally met. Sort of like what we did to the African Americans for the past 200 years. We put them on the “do not associate with” list.
    Oh, well. I have taken a lot of your time so I will end here.

    I am glad that it is springtime there. That is always a hopeful season.

    My offer still stands for seeds and such.

    Much Love,

    Jamie

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